Debate Help for Blogosphere Arminians
As a public service to all the anti-Calvinistic Christians out there in the blogosphere, I am publishing a selection of pre-written comments that you can leave in reply to Calvinist postings of whatever kind. Save your brainpower for more important things and just copy this list and have it handy, so that you can cut-and-paste wherever it becomes needful.
However, I must be clear that I have not come up with the substance of any of this myself, but have simply collated what I have found in the blog world as people try to argue with the Bible's teaching on the sovereignty of God in salvation. And don't worry about actually fitting these into the flow or context of whatever debate happens to be going on: I've found them all over, and so must conclude that they are wonderful, powerful arguments wherever they may be placed...so...have a blast!
1. "Y'know, if you Calvinists spent as much time and energy on evangelism as you do on bashing your brothers in Christ who are really out there preaching the gospel, then we might really see revival!"
2. "When's the last time you actually witnessed to someone?"
3. "How many folks have you saved in the last six months?"
4. "Calvinism is one man's theology, one man's system. I prefer to listen to Jesus."
5. "The only JC I follow is not John Calvin, but Jesus Christ."
6. "You guys are so mean. Even if you're right, no one listens because you are snooty and arrogant. Always name-calling."
7. "I'm not Calvinist or Arminian. I'm Baptist."
8. "Calvinism splits churches and puts a screeching halt to evangelism wherever it becomes prominent."
9. "I don't know about all your complex theology. I just believe John 3:16."
10. "I just can't believe that someone will be kept out of heaven, even if they loved Jesus with all their heart, just because they weren't part of the chosen few."
11. "You guys are mean. You think you know everything. You just want everyone to think like you do. You just want to win arguments and have everyone admit you're right. You have no business judging someone's thoughts or motivations."
12. "Calvinism is a virus that kills good churches."
13. "Calvinists are worse than Moslems."
14. "You can bet that anyone who wastes time reading or writing at your blog is being disobedient to the Great Commission."
15. "Why can't you just put aside your differences with Arminians and work together for the greater spread of the Gospel? All this arguing about how a man is saved...let's stop arguing about it and just preach the Gospel. As long as we agree on the important things, like the pre-trib Rapture, why can't we just get along?"
16. "Calvinists hope dead babies go to hell."
17. "Calvinists hope innocent people in Africa who haven't heard of Jesus will go to hell."
18. "Calvinists hope all non-Calvinists go to hell."
19. "Calvinists don't want to preach the Gospel too much, for fear that some people who are destined to go to hell might actually believe and wind up in heaven."
20. "You guys are mean. You think only your interpretation of Scipture is correct. You refuse to submit to the Catholic Magisterium."
21. "You guys are mean. You think only your interpretation of Scripture is correct. Unlike me. I know I'm wrong. But still, you're mean."
22. "Mean people suck."
23. "I know a guy who became a Calvinist. Now, he is mean."
24. "I know a guy who became a Calvinist, and now he doesn't have altar calls at his church."
25. "I know a guy who became a Calvinist, and now he bakes babies into his communion bread."
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Okay, I realize this is not a complete list, but it will certainly suffice for its intended purpose. You will now win every debate on Calvinism you get into. Just use one of the above, as all 25 of them are beyond argument and positively prove that Calvinism is unbiblical. However, if you run into a really smart Calvinist, of which there are a handful, you can completely bamboozle them by combining several of these arguments into one comment. Try also using the same comment over and over again, but just change the wording a little.
No need to thank me. I do what I can.
Posts
45 Distress Signals:
Ha! That is great. I'm going to spread the word on this post.
Please do. I know millions of Arminian brain cells have collaborated to bring these comments into existence.
Hmm... communal synergism, coming to an arminian church near you.
I have some Calvinistic antagonists I would like to utilize these "one liners" on. Thanks Gordan, now I shall eviscerate ostentatous reformers everywhere!
-Scribe(tulip wilter of arminia)
Scribe, LOL, eviscerate on, my friend, eviscerate on. Please report back on the devestation that is wreaked by your new-found line of attack.
Umm... this was very painful. I think I've had all of them used against me at one point or another. ;)
Perhaps you should also provide a link to Dave Hunt's site. The people who made such comments to me also had a tendency to supply my wife with his books to use against me.
Oh yeah... you can provide Arminian pastors with links to online do-it-yourself divorce services. This was also very popular to use against me under the banner of "Spiritual Separation". They actually succeeded and broke apart a friend's family. The church of course rallied and paid for the divorce, etc. for the young bride. Not all churches are as affluent. I'm sure some would appreciate such links. ;)
Just when I thought you were behaving ;)
Mike, your stories would be funny if they weren't true. As a side note, that's why it's been so tough for me to really get in gear with my parody blog: about the time you've come up with something outrageous with which to parody the church, someone goes and actually does something worse. The reality is always a step ahead of the parody.
You thought I was behaving? I apologize if I did anything to give off that impression. :)
I've heard those phrases uttered too many times.
Thanks for your help. I will try not to use these phases when I "debate" Calvinists.
lol... not bad. You need to follow this up with a Calvinist edition... you could use "You don't believe that God is sovereign" or "I'm tired of hearing your Pelagian arguments" or "Your theology is man-centered".
Jamie: Me, too. Thus the post.
Rob: Okay, if you don't want to you don't have to. I'm only here to help. :)
deviant monk: Touche'. Truth is a lot of the "debate" on both sides is less than rigorously biblical.
To all: thanks for the stop-by.
"You can bet that anyone who wastes time reading or writing at your blog is being disobedient to the Great Commission."
This little oxymornic jewel was my favorite.
Gayla,
I am overjoyed to see that someone caught that and enjoyed it. There are a couple more like that, as well...
Finally! You know, I'm not really a Calvinist. I just couldn't ever find anything clever enough to say against it. But NOW!
As the kids say, Naomi, you go, girl!
Uh, I have often wondered if we called 'election' just 'election' and not Calvin, if they would be more apt to see it in scripture.
I get the creeps calling it Calvinism. It is sorta.... and I mean 'sorta'.... like them calling 'decisions'... "Billy Grahams" or "Finneys".
Most free willers have not even heard the word, Arminian, but they certainly have heard of Calvinism. What is up with that?
By the way, as someone who believes in election, I will say I know many free willers who display incredible fruit despite bad doctrine.
Lin,
No one's said that Arminians aren't Christians. But bearing fruit doesn't excuse bad doctrine.
Lin,
I hear ya. I think it's a sad thing that it's been labelled as "Calvinism," when I believe, with Spurgeon, it is simply the Gospel.
It'd be nice if we could chuck that label, that nickname, in favor of a new one. But, I don't see that happening anytime soon.
Plus, on the other hand, I think it's also true that no matter what it's called, it will not sit well with the human nature, and so will be hated. A rose by any other name...
Gordon....your posts are working...Some used one of your comments on my blog. I don't know if this is a joke, or if they were serious. Oh well! Your work is showing forth fruit!
Boo
Joshua,
That news is a weird combination of motifying, sad, and downright hilarious.
The hazards of being linked under my "Fellow Crimefighters."
Sadly, I've seen many of those used.
Another popular one: "Calvinists don't believe that people make choices."
-Turretinfan
Turretinfan,
Yes, that is a classic. Along the same lines, I've heard it put like this: "Would you rather have a puppy or a puppet?"
Because, of course, Calvinists believe people are robots or puppets, with no real choices to make.
Gordon...he has used yet another one...And emailed me...Anyway...i think it's interesting.
Joshua,
Do you think he's serious? Could it be that he really doesn't understand why the "argument" in question is not a decent argument, and wants you to explain it to him?
I've read enough of your writing to know there's not a single one on the list that you couldn't knock out of the park, so it makes me curious.
I don't know if he is serious. His two comments were two statements from your blog, and his email was filled with those statements, four of them to be exact. I hope he isn't. I wonder if he is getting them from your site, or if he thinks those are good. Anyway, I'm not worried.
Joshua,
I am seriously stunned. I feel like I owe you an apology for supplying that guy with ammunition (however lame and stupid it is.)
I have occassion in my job to meet up with people from time to time who are literally so unintelligent that I am amazed that they have survived life into adulthood.
I'm not saying your new antagonist is like that. No, on second thought, that's exactly what I'm saying. Don't treat him too harshly: I have a hunch he is to be pitied.
"How many folks have you saved in the last six months?" is my favorite. I grew up in a church that used that one all the time. For the record, I've saved 12, that's 2 a month. I could of saved more but I have such trouble avoiding these Calvinistic tendencies of mine.
I'm ashamed to say that I once used most of those arguments, back in my Arminian days. (Except for those about ignoring theology. I've always thought that theology is important. Of course, it was through studying theology that I became Calvinistic, Covenantal, and amil.)
"How many folks have you saved in the last six months?" is my favorite. I grew up in a church that used that one all the time. For the record, I've saved 12, that's 2 a month. I could of saved more but I have such trouble avoiding these Calvinistic tendencies of mine.
Lol, Senor Renegade;as soon as I advance in my arminian manipulation's course I shall have convinced a multitude of salvation.I shall have bragging rights even against the age to come!!
Scribe
Amanda, I still look back on arguments that I myself used to think were airtight/solid, and I have to shake my head in wonder. Praise God for His patience.
Renegade: Of course, the reason I think that argument is hilarious is because the usual question is not "How many has God saved?" but rather, "How many have you saved?" I haven't personally saved anyone, though God has brought some small number of people to faith by the instrument of my witness. (But, having said that, I'd be ecstatic if God used me in the genuine conversion of a couple each month...Wow!)
Scribe: you continue to crack me up.
Gordan,
Not as hilarious as your guidelines for commenting..it was so funny to me I addressed it @ my blog...
-Scribe
@#$**, my**
Nice list. I've heard almost all of those on the list in my discussions. All except #25 - that one was a new one for me. :D
In Christ,
Albert Shepherd
The Aspiring Theologian
Knight of the Living God
If you want to be accurate, you would had spelled "Arminian" as "Armenian."
For example, on #7:
"I'm not Calvinist or Armenian, I'm Baptist"
Fred
Fred, LOL, that is exactly right: I wish I had a dime for every time I've seen a non-Calvinist spell it "Armenian."
Shows you that you're dealing with a person who has devoted extensive time and effort to studying the topic, eh?
More debate help for the "Armenians" from Armeania.
http://examiningcalvinism.blogspot.com/2007/01/calvinism-is-like-rotten-candy-apple.html
I actually hope people will visit the above site for anti-Calvinist arguments which try, at least, to rise above the level of those I have posted.
Then take a look-see over at Strangebaptistfire.com for some interaction with Examining Calvinism.
How am I an anti-Calvinist? If I should disagree with Calvinism, does that make me an enemy? On my website, I clearly state that before we are Arminians or Calvinists, we are first and foremost, "Christians."
No, no. I never called you an enemy. I accept your confession of faith in Christ as genuine.
By "anti-Calvinist" I don't mean that you have something against individuals who hold to Calvinism. I mean that you oppose the system itself. As I oppose yours. Nothing personal.
How can any of this be defined as "Christlike?"
Anonymous,
I totally agree with your rhetorical question there: I have often wondered why people confessing Christ would seriously use the sorts of arguments I've listed. But they do. We just have to keep praying for them.
The god you believe in apparently foreordained that I should write this comment. Therefore, it's not my fault that I'm writing it, because thousands of years ago this action was determined for me to be done by me. However, I will be judged by your god for having typed it as if it were my responsibility for having done it.
Perhaps, your god even foreordained that you will not have the guts to let this comment remain on your blog. Then again, maybe this comment was predestined to remain. We won't know until you DECIDE what has already been decided by your god that you will decide.
Doesn't life from your world-view seem a little weird? Or maybe your god foreordained your mind to accept this as normal.
I am living in a foreign country trying to spread the good news. I spend hours studying the Book and talking to my God. Yet, He hasn't seen fit to allow my faith, though probably very small indeed, to see your god's system as anything but stranger than the systems of the Moslems and Buddhists that I work amongst.
Like Mormonism, you share so much of the same terminology and appearance as I have, but in the end, your god is completely different from mine. You play the game of pretending to believe in my God until a man has been drawn in. Then you spring your new concept of god in very crafty steps until you've led your prey into a brain numbed condition to accept the logic with which I started this post as being credible and believable.
Please forgive your god for having forced me to type what I have typed. Hate me instead, because apparently I will be judged by your god for it anyway.
If anyone out there, has been predestined to respond to what I have typed, I'm interested in what eternity decided would be said in response to what eternity decided I would type in response to what Gordan was foreordained to type...
Come to think of it, I think I was predestined to not care about you guys were foreordained to think about my comment. Sorry.
William,
LOL. That was great.
You'll note I never claimed I was giving out a complete list, but thanks anyway for supplying so many more hilarious, not to mention highly scriptural, anti-Calvinist rants.
Your satirical portrayal of this sort of "debater" really does fall right into the mold, even using arguments of mine, only slightly re-tooled.
Very clever. Thanks for stopping by.
If you are interested in some less entertaining polemics, check out my blog. I look forward to the interaction.
God Bless,
Ben
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